Jimmy Wo – San Soo Founder

Lou Sifu JimmyA.K.A “Jimmy H. Woo”

San Soo » Jimmy H. Woo

Chan Siu Dek, aka “Jimmy H. Woo”

There’s no question that the art of Kung Fu San Soo wouldn’t be alive in America today if it was not for the legendary and mysterious fighter known as Jimmy H. Woo. And while most knew him as Jimmy, in Cantonese his real name was Chan Siu Dek, (Chen Shou Jue in Mandarin, Zhen She De in Pinyin, Chin Siu Dek in Hoisanese). We discuss the history of his art, Kung Fu San Soo, and his lineage, in depth in the history and lineage

Family accounts now hold that Jimmywas born in Sanba Town, Taishan City, Guandong Province, China, in the early 1900′s.

He began training as a child, but we’re unsure exactly how old he was. Various assertions range from four years old to seven years old, but he told one of us his father started teaching him at six. As with many of the confusing accounts, the disparity could be something as simple as this: he may have begun form practice on his own at four, began to learn technique from his father at six, and began formal training at seven.

But we have heard that according to an interview with his cousin, Chan Sai Mo, son of Jimmy’sgreat uncle, Chan Siu Hung, conducted in China on October 28, 2003, his formal training was exclusively in the art of Choy Li Fut.

Jimmy’sown accounts hold his great uncle largely responsible for both his martial training and the development of his fighting character.

Everyone who knew him seem to remember him as a person so confident, so colorful, that almost no one ever forgot him.

In an age of Caged Fights, “No Hold’s Barred” Mixed Martial Arts competitions, and video tapes of brutal underground fights, we can not envision the kind of person who would stand up at a Kung Fu San Soo demonstration before hundreds in a venue like the Los Angeles County Fair — a county of millions,— and invite anyone who thought he might be tough enough to come up and fight him, on the spot, and with a conviction that was downright chilling.

“You might speak more better English”, he would calmly say with a confident smile, pointing his finger right at various individuals in the crowd. “You might play more better music. But I doubt very much if you a better fighter! But if you think you are,” he’d say, his demeanor hardening and eyes narrowing, “I invite you to come up and prove it, right now! You life or mine!”

This could be in front of virtually anyone, of any size, and of any fighting background. When he demonstrated before representatives of the other Chinese martial arts schools, we remember him calling out, “You all know who I am. You know what I can do. If you think your Kung Fu is better than mine, come and prove it now.”

 To our knowledge, no one ever successfully did, although many probably wanted to with great desperation, and there are stories of a few who tried.

His was always a full public challenge. He fought so many times only the visible scars might hint at his true inner experience.

Several reports hold that by the age of 20, he had lost so many teeth by fighting that he had to be fitted with dentures.

He possessed an astounding range of martial skills, so large in fact that first generation masters are still having difficulty placing all his skills into known Chinese martial ‘styles’. And in the end, he died of old age. This is without a doubt, the right stuff, the stuff from which legends are made.

Individuals who never witnessed these challenges have a great deal of difficulty imagining them to be true.

 What they fail to take into account is the rare set of circumstances that occassionally come together to make a person great in any given field. Jimmywas first a fighter by nature.

His great uncle not only taught him technique, but constantly urged him to fight with others around him in the streets of China from his early childhood to test and employ those techniques. He also learned the uncommon skill of almost completely dissassociating himself from consequences.

He would rather kill than loose a fight. He would rather die. So any opponent had to face a tough fighter, trained and practiced at techniques designed to injure, maim, or kill, and was perfectly willing to go to the extreme in an escalation.

These traits did not make Jimmyunbeatable, but they definitely made him formidable. While Kung Fu San Soo is a remarkable fighting art — admittedly among many notable fighting arts — perhaps the art did not so much make Jimmya great fighter, as his instructional efforts, real world examples, and training methods made Kung Fu San Soo a great art for true fighters.

In the center of all this, unable to take him on face to face, there were those who made attacks on his character, sometimes attempting to connect him with Chinese organized crime.

Maybe this is true to some degree but then we must understand something about Chinese American history. To understand anything about the man, one must put this all into context.

Chinese in America

The Guandong province of China, where Jimmywas born and raised, where his fighting ancestors opposed the inequities imposed on them by the Qing Dynasty, was the principal source for Chinese labor immigrating to America.

Suffering under great conflicts like the Taiping Rebellion, the Punti-Hakka Clan Wars, and the Boxer Rebellion, Chinese refugees immigrated into various parts of the Western world, including British Hong Kong, Australia, Canada, Mexico, and the United States.

In America they were used to mine gold in California on the Gum Shan, or Gold Mountain, to build railways, levies, waterways, dams, and roads, to harvest crops, build the citrus industry and Southern Pacific rail system in Southern California, and to construct the Transcontinental Railroad.

They were even cheaper labor than mules. Before the advent of dynamite, they were lowered down in baskets to insert raw nitroglycerine into drilled out rock walls on Donner Summit in the Sierra Nevada, a job with such high mortality it produced the slur, “He doesn’t have a Chinaman’s chance,” used long afterward in reference to a person in a position with long odds against him.

When a job was done, the laboring Chinese individuals were discarded. In 1854 the California State Supreme Court included the Chinese with Blacks and Indians, and denied the group the right to testify against white men in courts of law.

With the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882, which extended until 1943, further immigration was prohibited, and those individuals that were here were prevented bringing in wives or family into the country. Associating with anglo women was violently opposed. Isolated from wives, and alienated by severe prejudice, the demand for Chinese brothels was even greater than it was in the rest of the non-Chinese West, where it’s historically known to have been a flourishing trade.

The Chinese were often prevented from owning land and forcibly segregated into their own China Towns. But their towns were burned, again, and again, and again.

In Los Angeles, in 1871, 500 whites went on an arson spree leaving 19 Chinese dead. The Chinese were left without policing or protection for their homes, their merchants, and their brothel and gambling establishments, establishments no different than those throughout the rest of Western America at that time, except that they were Chinese.

So it’s perfectly logical that they would extend the allegiances of their historic secret organizations into America to secure their own internal order, organizations that were probably at the very historic core of fighting arts like Kung Fu San Soo.

These organizations formed into “benevolent societies” called Tongs, meaning a hall, or “place to gather“. Along with clan organizations based on family surname, tong associations played a very important role for Chinese American immigrants.

In China, benevolent tong associations are very old. In recent history, the Tong Ming Hui supported Dr. Sun Yat-Sen, and were later reorganized into the Quo Min Tong, more commonly known as the Kuomintang, representing the Nationalist Party of China. The political platform of Tong Ming Hui was, “to overthrow the Manchu barbarians”, which any Kung Fu San Soo history buff should find quite interesting.

In America, the various Tongs were known to occasionally fight among each other. As an aside, the Sonora School is very near the site of Chinese Camp in California, the site of the first and largest tong war in Chinese American history. But most of their effort went into welcoming new immigrants, helping them with the language barrier, communicating with family in China, and sometimes providing the common civil protection the rest of America took for granted.

Even today the Tong groups are highly secretive, and they very likely mirrored the fraternal trust built up by groups in China like the Red Flower Society, or Hung Fa Wui, and the Tian Di Hui, groups historically involved in the very creation of the Nánquán fighting arts, including the one known today as Kung Fu San Soo, to overthrow the Manchurian Qing Dynasty.

Throughout the United States, many of these organizations often disguised themselves as Chinese Freemasons, blending into the Eurocentric secret society traditions common on the American frontier. In Los Angeles, the most notable of these organizations was the Hop Sing Tong, which was established there before 1877.

About the time the Japanese invaded Southern China in the mid 1930′s, or perhaps in anticipation a little earlier, family sources tell us that they arranged a passport for Jimmyunder the assumed name, “Kun Haw Woo”, so he could travel to meet his father, who according to some important sources, had immigrated to America through Mexico 12 years earlier. We are told he later changed it to “Jimmy Haw Woo” at the suggestion of an American teacher.

Although some sources insist he arrived at the Port of Los Angles directly by steamship, given the immigration situation for Chinese in the early 1930′s, we find it highly unlikely. We imagine that like his father before him, he most likely came into America illegally from Mexico.

On their respective arrivals, they very likely found food, shelter, and support from the benevolent society in Los Angeles China Town, the Hop Sing Tong. Probably because of the Exclusion Act, his mother remained behind.

Although he is said to have sent her money while she was alive, he never saw her again. Given the mistrust by the Chinese after decades of American persecution, concerns about the Immigration Service, and fear about how his mother might be treated by the Communists in China, Jimmyapparently tried to keep an intelligent profile.

He insisted that he was born in Hawaii until the end of his life, thereby implying that he was an American citizen by birth under the Fourteenth Amendment to the U. S. Constitution, and always went by his assumed legal name, Jimmy H. Woo. This is particularly poignant because he was in fact a member of the very famous Choy Li Fut Chan clan with roots going all the way back to Chan Heung, the founder of Choy Li Fut, and while he did often assert it, he really freely couldn’t use it to publicly support his art.

At the peak of Chinese labor, there were more than 500,000 Chinese working in America. By the time Jimmyarrived in the early 1930′s, repatriation, discouragement, and death had reduced that number to less than 25,000.

 The Great Depression was raging with 25% unemployment. No one was interested in more Chinese laborers, and the Chinese, especially those from the Southern provinces who were trained in the street fighting aspect of the Nánquán art of Wushu, were not interested in sharing their secret fighting art with Caucasians.

A Legendary Fighter

For decades he worked at various jobs, mostly around the Chinese restaurant and produce industry. There are also stories about him providing security for Chinese merchants in Los Angeles, following the historic necessitation and tradition for the Chinese to protect their own. People still tell stories about his martial skills.

When local hoodlums began to prey on tourists, Chinese merchants complained, and there are claims that he walked the streets of Los Angeles China Town at night, intentionally attracting muggers, and dispatching them so effectively, that the trouble ended. Some say he bounced all of Los Angeles China Town during World War II. For those that knew him, these stories are all easy to believe.

It’s interesting to note that he was not the first Taishanese Tsoi Li Fut fighter to historically appear in Los Angeles. Lau Bun immigrated through Mexico in 1924. Stories about him indicate that after a serious confrontation with both Los Angeles Police and Immigration Officers, one where he fought them off and evaded them by jumping off a two story building, the Los Angeles benevolent organization, Hop Sing Tong, employed him as their head fighting instructor, and probably the chief of Chinese security.

He left Los Angeles for San Francisco just about the time Jimmyarrived. Some accounts have Jimmyreplacing Lau Bun as security consultant for the Hop Sing Tong. Similar accounts claim Jimmysometimes visited Lau Bun at his Tsoi Li Fut school in San Francisco. Whether this is true or not, it’s very interesting that this school lineage is one of the few places beyond the world of Kung Fu San Soo where we find the calligraphic word Jimmyused for ‘Ho’ replacing the traditional ‘Mok’ in the five family name, Tsoi Li Ho Fut Hung.

Teaching Kung Fu San Soo to Americans

For years, Jimmytaught through the Los Angeles Sing Kang or “cousin’s club”. But somehow the lineage never caught on and no one seems to know of a descendent school from the Sing Kang.

In those days teaching the true fighting aspect of the art in the quick fashion employed by Kung Fu San Soo to those outside one’s own family, culture, or sworn fraternal society, was severely discouraged by the Chinese.

This was an art steeped at its very core with mystery, blood oath honor, and intense loyalty. Unlike today, where we find dozens of arts taught in every part of every city, where we can take them or leave them,

The lineage of the art we call Kung Fu San Soo was not freely given away

A person had to earn the right to learn it, and the cost was not always cheap.

Unlike most of us today, a person like Jimmydid not have the luxury of marching around displaying his belt ranking or a sport trophy— but had to earn his ‘rank’ by consistently fighting in  serious combat, your life or mine, and survive.

So for those of us who are lucky enough to study his art, the debt of gratitude we should hold is not possible to further describe in words.

But Jimmyallegedly won a large amount of money on a horse race, and somewhere around 1960-1962 he created a studio in the Midway Shopping Center in El Monte California, opening his doors to anyone willing to learn. He posted a motto over his desk. It read, “You can take my life, but not my confidence”.

 It’s probably safe to say that everyone who met him, from the first look in his eyes, firmly believed it was true.

Those very few that didn’t believe uniformly found out the hard way. The stories are always inspirational. One moment a “tough guy” would be mouthing off or make a move toward him, and the next instant that person would be lying on the floor, always stunned, sometimes quivering.

One account holds that a very large kick boxer pushed his way into the El Monte studio one day, only to find himself humbled like this. This account holds that Jimmystood over him proclaiming, “You come in like a lion…but you go out like a little pussy cat!”

We are told that Jimmydid not have a belt ranking system when he first started, as belt ranking was not common in China.

In 1962, few had heard of Kung Fu, much less Tsoi Li Ho Fut Hung. So he first called his school, Chinese Karate Kung Fu, and later adopted a belt ranking system much like that popularly used at that time in the world of Karate, producing considerable confusion about the nature of the art, its origins, and the ranking.

But it was a time when martial arts uniforms and belt rankings were commonly understood under the ‘Karate’ symbolism and lexicon by Westerners. It was before Bruce Lee, and well before the Kung Fu Television Series made the phrase a household name, even before Jackie Chan or Jet Li, and long before Kung Fu Hustle or Fearless.

Ed Parker was also busy at that time in Southern California popularizing American Kenpo as “American Karate Kung Fu”. Even other Chinese martial practitioners tried to describe their arts as “Karate Kung Fu.”

In in 1961, T. Y. Wong and K. H. Lee, wrote a book titled, “Chinese Karate Kung Fu: Original Sil Lum System for Health and Self Defense”, right at the time Jimmywas opening his own school.

Some recent testimony suggest that later in life Jimmyadmitted he regretted taking on the Karate-like belt ranking system and, given the opportunity, would have stayed with a more traditional Chinese ranking.

But while many of the other systems emerging at that time really did become hybrids, Jimmy’steachings remained very close to his core lineage. From this and his fighting prowess, we know he and his art were the “real deal”.

His method of teaching was quick and tough. He used to tell prospective students, “You give me 90 days, I make you a better fighter.” And he often did.

That’s a very different formality than most of the schools teaching Chinese martial arts, schools where many years of forms and fundamental training were required before even beginning to teach a student to actually fight.

But the core art of Jimmy’sclan was based on the rapid teaching, intuitive spatial mapping, and fight response training refined in the Shaolin Temple in Fujian. And his method of teaching was the ancient, spontaneous two man fight training system called “san soo” in Cantonese.

As students progressed, he taught both traditional empty hand forms and weapons forms with traditional Chinese weapons.

 Both practices remain in the better Kung Fu San Soo schools today. But few students apparently showed any interest in other traditions associated with Chinese martial arts like Lion Dancing and he did not teach them, although many say he loved those arts. And although he apparently knew a great deal about the internal arts, reports suggest he only taught internal practices like Qigong or Push Hands to those few that expressed a specific interest.

This is true even though Push Hands is a Taijiquan two-man exercise that although not so much in technique, but in historical origins, shares the same background as Kung Fu San Soo work out sparring. We are aware of no one who claims that he regularly taught formal Chinese internal exercises.

But while most view Kung Fu San Soo as an external art, Jimmyalways stressed the use of the mind to manage, or ‘operate’, the body, a notion very much associated with the Chinese concept of Yi in the internal practices. This would be at least one aspect of the Fo Jia (Mandarin), or psychological element, of the Five Families of Kung Fu San Soo.

In the early days, men’s classes were conducted separately from women’s classes. Jimmy’sdaughter, Evelyn, taught the women’s classes. In later years, the classes became coeducational. Today, most Kung Fu San Soo schools conduct coeducational classes.

Most great Chinese masters of the caliber of Jimmyknew a great deal about traditional Chinese medicinal practices, and many were “bone setters”. In an age where modern medicine was nonexistent and in an art where serious fighting was highly likely to produce such injuries, masters often knew how to set broken bones, or realign displaced bones.

We don’t know for sure how much Jimmyknew about traditional medicine. But we do know of one particular incident for a fact, as it happened in El Monte to one of us from the Sonora School. When the student dislocated his fibula at the outside of his knee,

Jimmylooked it over, and with a quick move, relocated the bone. When the student let out a howl, Jimmyhelped him to his feet, and simply laughed out loud at his cry of pain and sent him limping back to practice.

It’s probably safe to say that most of those that stayed with him for years often became pretty good fighters, and were truly capable of awesome demonstrations. One account holds that when the Beijing Wushu School Team did their first tour of the United States in 1974, a tour that included the famous Jet Li, Jimmytook some of his best students to do a demonstration of his art for them when they were in Southern California. The entire Wushu team is held to have given the Kung Fu San Soo group a standing ovation. We do not know if this is accurate or not, but we do find it believable.

While he never encouraged individuals to misuse the art, neither was he opposed to students defending themselves. It was not unusual for people to occasionally come to class with a black eye or a chipped tooth. All he ever said was, “Did you fight like I teach you”? If they said yes, he’d just nod and walk away. Accounts hold that Frank, Woolsey, one of his early black belts, accrued more than 300 street fights in those early days, with the Los Angeles County District Attorney, Ira Riner, one step behind him all the way.

We fully realize the controversy Frank Woolsey caused with respect to the art, but his San Soo trained street fighting ability, along with fighters like Bill Lasiter, Raul Ries, and many others, did not go unnoticed. The reputation of Kung Fu San Soo spread around the Southern California area very quickly.

Jimmyused to tell stories about his great uncle, Chan Siu Hung, how they went from village to village selling Traditional Chinese Medicines and Dit Da Jow, and how they put on demonstrations not unlike those employed by Kung Fu San Schools today, although sometimes with very serious challenges and even mortal confrontations.

He confided that on Chinese New Year, fighters sometimes used Opium to build a tolerance to pain before fighting, and that some of them were very, very dangerous at those events. The stories of selling traditional medicines is fully in keeping with the Chan family story placing Chan Siu Hung in the Choy Li Fut lineage, noting that Chan Koon Pak urged Chan Siu Hung to sell herbs and medicines for a living.

Many Kung Fu San Soo references occur suggesting Chan Siu Hung was killed in a fight with a Japanese officer during the occupation. Some accounts suggest that Jimmymay have had several ‘uncles’, being a term typically used to describe an older Kung Fu teacher, although we have no detailed information about any besides Chan Siu Hung.

But according to recent testimony given by Chan Siu Hung’s son, Chan Sai Mo, Chan Siu Hung died of old age. Yet according to early Kung Fu San Soo visitors who sought out Jimmy’smother in China during the mid 1980′s, there was indeed a fight to the death with an uncle. But better sources suggest today that this was the person Jimmycalled his “little uncle”, and not his great uncle, Chan Siu Hung.

Jimmyoften used to show students the scar that ran down his left forearm, from his wrist to his elbow, where he was attacked by a criminal in a Chinese kitchen with a meat cleaver. It was like a rite of passage for young new students. “Show us the scar, Jimmy!”, they’d say. And he would.

Not one to be demoralized by the effective loss of use in his left hand in a fight, he’d say, “Blocked the cleaver, knocked him into a vat of burning grease…scarred him for life.” He’d tell them how he spent hours on an operating table while doctors repaired the damage.

Jimmytaught until the early 1980′s, when he turned the El Monte school over to long time student, master Jack Sera, and went into semi-retirement.

He continued to teach part time in private classes until his death in 1991. The only person left alive in China at the time of this writing who actually remembers him is his cousin, Chan Sai Mo, now in his mid nineties. Reports tell us that there are other younger cousins in China surviving Chan Siu Dek, and several cousins living in the United States. He is also survived by a daughter, Evelyn, a son, Warren Woo, two other children, and a grandson, J. P. King.

Depending on the source, he produced about 40 first generation masters and possibly hundreds of black belts. One of those first generation masters was Bill Lasiter, through whom the Sonora School traces its lineage.

Hundreds have secured the master’s rank in Kung Fu San Soo over the years, including second generation master, Rusty Wallace, founder of the Sonora School, and very likely thousands of black belts ranging in rank from basic black to seventh degree.

Everyone who knew Jimmyremembers a man so confident that he honestly appeared invincible, but a man so concerned with those around him he sometimes carried students who couldn’t pay.

He was remembered both for this powerful American fight challenges, challenges he learned fighting the Lei Tai with his great uncle, Chan Siu Hung, as well as the times he would pause to encourage a child.

About his students, he said, “Good boys, bad boys, you all my boys”. Laying a hand on a shoulder, he told one of us personally, “Remember, you one of my studen’. You ALWAY one of my studen’!” It was a comment taken to heart.

He was a great fighter from a historic lineage of legendary fighters, who produced his own modern lineage of many excellent fighters. In a rare 1974 interview televised on early cable, when asked what his art could do for a person, he replied it would make one a “Man among men, a fighter among fighters”.

For most of his life he lived by a creed best described in his own word:

“In this art we have no rules or regulations. In a street fight there are no judges or referees…. A fight is a fight. It’s my life or yours! If you win, you might kill me. I fall down and crush my skull on the sidewalk, then I die. You break my nose or put out my eye then I’m ruined for life. I can’t honestly do less than my best and in a fight my best is to win.”

Toward the end of his career, with the perspective of a modern, changing world, for the benefit of so many students putting their lives into Kung Fu San Soo in an age very different than the one he grew up in, he moderated his view slightly and added the slogan:

“The art of Kung Fu San Soo lies not in victory and defeat, but in the building of human character”.

He was posthumously inducted into the Martial Art’s Museum Martial Arts Hall of Fame for the year 2001, along with Helio Gracie and Jackie Chan.

About the same time he was noted as one of the four most important people to come from the Taishan City region of China, in company with Gary Locke, the former Governor of the US State of Washington and the first person of Chinese descent to ever become a state governor, and Adrienne Clarkson, appointed by Queen Elizabeth II as the Governor General to the nation of Canada.

This is particularly noteworthy as Taishan City is one of the regions where virtually millions immigrated to all parts of the world during the past 150 years. So to say that Chan Siu Dek, aka Jimmy H. Woo, was one in a million, is not at all an exaggeration.

But when we contacted the Chinese Historical Society of Southern California, and the Chinese American Historical Society in Los Angeles trying to hunt down more information about him, neither organization knew who he was or that he ever existed. But they undoubtedly should. For all he gave them, it would seem many of his students have not taken the time to fully appreciate his memory.

Michael Echanis Interview

Q: Where is warfare going?

World War II unleashed incredibly powerful weapons.

The plane came into its own.

So did the tank.

Hitler’s Panzer divisions and blitzkrieg war almost succeeded in conquering all of Europe.

It appeared that the lowly foot soldier and hand-to-hand combat be obscure

But a strange thing happened. Land wars became composed of “mini battles.”

..familiar battle lines of the two World Wars evaporated into nightmarish forces appearing suddenly in unexpected places.

Wars became limited to “conventional weapons.” America got bogged down in a long, drawn-out war on the Asian mainland.

 Interest in guerrilla tactics increased.

Slowly it became apparent that knives, bows and arrows, stalking techniques and all the other specialties of individual human combat were as important as ever.

The only heroes of the Vietnam war were the American “guerrilla forces,” the Green Berets in their isolated Special Forces Camps.

Q: What kind of training are these new breed of warriors getting?

ME: So today, you can see modern American soldiers being trained in ancient fighting techniques in such places as the Hwarangdo Hand-to-Hand Combat and Special Weapons School.

This Special Forces camp is located at John F. Kennedy Center for Military Assistance, Fort Bragg, North Carolina.

Q: Are you affilated with this training center?

ME: Yes I teach  hwarangdo

Q: Can you tell us a bit about this art? 

ME: Though hwarangdo is of Korean origin, its roots and ties are shared by other Asian nations such as China and Japan.

And, in fact, the most great guerrilla fighters of history were the “invisible assassins,” the ninja, who were employed as spies, kidnappers, killers and special surprise and shock attack forces during Japan’s pre-Meiji Restoration period.

Today, America is developing its own ninja-like army, and I help teach these skills

Q: What skills do you teach?

ME: I try to do a  full repertoire of fighting techniques employed by hwarangdo.

The art itself is a grab bag containing all forms of personal combat training in the use of hand weapons, revival techniques, joint-breaking techniques, stalking techniques.

Techniques similar to various other martial arts, including judo, aikido, jujitsu, karate, tang soo do, Korean kwon pup or kempo, are utilized.

Students at the special training camp learn the standard martial arts punching, blocking and ‘kicking techniques.

Beyond that, finger pressure points, joint breaking and throwing techniques are taught.

There is a full week’s instruction in such areas as knife fighting, knife throwing, short stick fighting, garrotes, crossbows and handgun reaction, blowguns and bayonet training.

Q: Any other skills your teach the elite soldiers?

ME: Yes, I teach a slill that is called in Korean Eun shin bop, or making oneself invisible.

Here students are taught to conceal themselves in front of others, utilizing such techniques as conforming to the terrain and moving in light shadow.

Sentry stalking, silent killing and prisoner-of-war snatches all figure prominently in the instruction.

We have two more sections to our school and military orders, but they are classified

Q: So are these students able to teach this to their troops?

ME: Yes, the training is designed to teach instructors in the basics of operational hand to hand warfare and the use of special weapons as taught by the hwarangdo method.

 Instructors then report back to their units and teach their staffs.

Q: Does it stop there for you?

ME: No, of course no, I have  gone a long way in my hwarangdo training, and am capable of the more advanced demonstrations of internal power or “ki” training.

Q: Does everyone get to this level?

ME:  Not really, only a few, higher-degree hwarangdo black belts are able to utilize this somewhat esoteric power.

For example, things like being able can push a spoke through the fleshy part of the arm or and throat and lift a bucket of water from a rope suspended by the spoke.

Though I know this appears a bits grotesque, I dont realt  feelo pain and am not injured in the slightest.

Q: We saw the picture of you and the jeep?

ME: Yes from time to time I do allow vehicles to be rolled across his body without being hurt.

Q: So you teach untis like the Green Berets?

ME: I am proud and honored to be able to teach at this level, I do feel I have a leg up because I was a Green Beret myself and  had  quite a bit of practical battlefield experience in Vietnam while with the  75th Ranger Battalion.

Q: We understand that you aare a bit of a war hero having won the Bronze Star medal with “V” device for heroism?

ME: Yes that is true  don’t know about the hero part, there were men over there a lot braver than me many dod not make it back

Q: Let me ready what is written about you in the Army records

.  In 1970, Echanis was awarded the while under enemy fire in Vietnam. The details of the award are in army records:

“Specialist Four Michael D. Echanis distinguished himself by valorous action when the truck in which he was a passenger was ambushed in the An Khe Pass.”

The truck had approached a sharp switchback, and he and his crew were greeted by a heavy volume of enemy. fire. Echanis immediately returned the fire.

 ”As the truck rounded the corner, Specialist Echanis was wounded in the left foot,” the order reads. “He disregarded the pain in his foot, reloaded his weapon, and continued to fire on the enemy.”

The truck rounded the curve, skidding into a ditch. Echanis, while reloading his weapon, was hit in the head by fragmentation from a small arms round that exploded in the rear of the truck. After further encounters, Echanis “was wounded for the third time when an AK-47 round hit him in the right foot and lodged in his calf.”

The award record continues: “Specialist Echanis was then wounded for a fourth time when his continued resistance drew a hail of enemy fire. Despite his numerous wounds, Specialist Echanis continued to fight until the beleaguered truck was relieved.

Specialist Echanis’ aggressive spirit and undaunted courage were decisive in preventing the annihilation of the truck and its personnel.”

ME: Very bad day, I am very lucky

Q: What happened after you left Vietnam?

I  returned to the States and began teaching in a hwarangdo school in La Habra, California.

Some interesting comments about me at that time, I was just back from the bush in Vietnam and well…

 ”He was just too tough on the students,” says Randy Wanner, the current instructor. “Besides, he was a military man and liked it. That’s where he was happy.”

Q: So then what?

I guess I survived the ordeal and returned to become a kind of modern day ninja instructor for the Hand-to-Hand Combat / Special Weapons School.

I do believe I am the only Caucasian man teaching charyok training to military personnel in the United States.

 Beyond that, I teach mind control and hypnosis three days a week for Operations and Intelligence.

I  also teaches hwarangdo to Navy S.E.A.L.S., Marine Force Recon units.

Q: Where did you learn these incredible skils?

I credit my skills and capabilities to my teacher, HwaRangDo Founder Dr. Joo Bang Lee.

Were it not for him,  I would know nothing about the martial arts

Q: An now?

 Today, I am  the chief instructor for about 200 instructors in these special warfare branches of the service.

Michael Echanis Warrior’s Warrior

Michael D. Echanis (November 16, 1950 – September 1978) was a former United States Army Special Forces and 75th Ranger Battalion enlisted soldier, ultimately working for the CIA as a contractor.

Echanis was born in Ontario, Oregon and was of Basque descent.[2] He enlisted in the US Army in 1969 and received the Purple Heart and Bronze Star with “V” device for his service in a LRRP in the Vietnam War. He was eventually promoted to the rank of Specialist 4.

He was killed while working for the CIA in Nicaragua in 1978 in a helicopter crash in along with his colleague Charles Sanders and members of the Nicaraguan armed forces, due to a bomb placed on board.[1]

. As an enlisted soldier, he  also served in the LRRP (Long Range Reconnaissance Patrol).

The LRRP were special small four to six man teams used in the Vietname War on highly dangerous special op missions deep in enemy terriorty.

During Echanis’ tour in Vietnam he was badly wounded in the leg and was forced to return home and live as a civilian. He was awarded the Purple Heart for his sacrifice and the Bronze Star for his bravery in combat. In Vietnam, he had at least 26 confirmed kills while on active duty.

Echanis had previous training in Tae Kwon Do and Judo, and wanted to continue his study in military combatives and the martial arts. He actively sought out martial arts systems, which would help him in this pursuit but was still unsatisfied with what he had found.

Through a referral by another martial artists, Michael found Hwa Rang Do® and Dr. Joo Bang Lee, who’s headquarters was located in Downey, Ca. Echanis requested instruction from Dr. Joo Bang Lee, but was initially turned away.

Dr. Lee could see the lasting effect combat had on Michael, and was unsure about taking on the responsibility of mentoring someone who had suffered the external and mental scars of war. But Michael was persistant and Dr. Lee finally agreed to take him in.

Dr. Joo Bang Lee agreed to train Echanis, and as a Doctor of Eastern Medicine also helped heal the wounds Echanis sustained during Vietnam. During his training with Dr. Lee, he also was instructed on Hwa Rang Do’s ‘Sulsa’ tactics, (or guerilla & stealth tactics).

After training under Dr. Lee, he took charge of a Hwa Rang Do® school in La Habra, Ca. as the head instructor. Unfortunately, Echanis was far too tough on his students in the La Habra school. He was unable to shed the intensity of a combatant.

Echanis was well-known as a hand-to-hand combat instructor for the Special Forces, SEALs, and other military groups. He was a high-ranking black sash in Hwa Rang Do and the author of three military-oriented hand-to-hand combat books based on it.[3] He had previously studied Judo and Tae Kwon Do. He served as the Martial Arts Editor of Soldier of Fortune magazine from 1974 to 1976.

For the civilian world, he was far too intense, but for the military he was perfect. Dr. Joo Bang Lee encouraged Echanis to return to the US military and to bring what he had learned from Hwa Rang Do® with him.

He became a hand-to-hand combat instructor for the US Special Forces responsible for training Green Berets, Navy Seals and other elite military groups.

While working as a contract employee for the CIA, Echanis began working for the Nicaraguan president, Anastacio Somoza during the 1970′s. He trained the Nicaraguan military and was very close to Somoza.

At some point, his relationship with Somoza soured and it is believed that Somoza was responsible for the assassination of Michael Echanis.

In September of 1978, Michael Echanis was killed while riding on a Navajo Twin Engine airplane over Nicaragua along with his colleague and Hwa Rang Do Black Sash Charles Sanders and other members of the Nicaraguan armed forces. The plane was brought down by a Soviet SAM-7, according to witnesses.

Before his death, Echanis with the help of Dr. Joo Bang Lee, authored three military hand-to-hand combat books based on Hwa Rang Do®. During a time in the 80′s, these books were actually outlawed by the US government and deemed too dangerous for the general public.

Michael Echanis is buried at St. John’s Catholic Cemetery in Ontario, Oregon.

The legacy of Michael Echanis is one of reverance and appreciation for his service to country, martial art and mankind. We wish to say THANK YOU to all service members and veterans for your sacrifice and selfless loyalty to our great nation

Echanis is buried at St. Johns Catholic Cemetery (a.k.a. Sunset Cemetery) in Ontario.[4]

Tribute to Encanis and 75th Rangers

Marc MacYoung Lies on Knife Fighting

Lie #1 You’re going to have time to draw your own weapon

In all the times I have been assaulted with knives,

only once was I able to pull my own weapon.

And I didn’t carry a folder, I carried a sheath knife

that I had repeatedly practiced speed drawing.

I could, in a crisis, draw and deploy a knife in just over one second.

This is not idle boasting, I demonstrate it in many of my videos.

And yet, despite this incredible rate of speed, when attacked

I didn’t have time to draw my knife

except for the one time that I leaped wildly backwards to gain space.

That’s because by the time I realized there was a knife involved,

I was already being attacked.

Not long ago I was involved in a discussion about a young biker

who had been blown off his barstool by a shotgun blast.

What had disturbed me is that he had been involved in an altercation

in the bar earlier and had not withdrawn, thereby signing his death warrant.

However, an Australian bouncer rightfully commented that the ages

between 18 and 24 is where these kinds of lifesaving lessons tend to be learned –

and those who don’t learn them, or aren’t lucky, never get any older.

It is only the young and inexperienced who make certain kinds of mistakes.

Most knife “fighting” training is predicated on the assumption

that you have somehow managed to get a blade in your hand.

Quite honestly, if you you are attacked by either a young punk,

a total incompetent or someone who was brandishing the knife

in order to get you to back off then there is a chance

that you might have time to draw you own weapon.

However, if you are dealing with anyone with any experience,

street savvy or cunning, you will not be able to draw your own blade

when you are attacked.

Against such a person, there is just not enough time.

He won’t show his weapon before he attacks.

That’s because those who are foolish enough to brandish weapons

in places where weapons are common don’t live long themselves.

And yet that is exactly what you are expecting him to do

so you can draw your own knife and defeat him.

Lie #2 It’s going to be a knife “fight”

Shortly before his death, I was sitting at the NRA convention in Phoenix

with Col. Rex Applegate, the father of American military knife work.

We were discussing the fad of “knife fighting” that we, as old timers in the subject,

were both amused and bemused with. He summed up the problem

with what was being promoted as knife work as “They’re teaching dueling.”

By this he meant standing there toe-to-toe, with the same weapons

and trying to kill each other like civilized gentlemen.

Not to be the bearer of bad tidings, but the reason someone uses a weapon

on another human being is to stack the deck in their favor.

People don’t use weapons to fight, they use weapons to win.

The absolute last thing any attacker wants to do

is to fight you with equal weapons.

If he was looking for a fight he wouldn’t have attacked you with a weapon

in the first place. And if he knows you have a knife,

he is going to attack you with a bigger and better weapon

to keep you from winning.

Personally one of the things that I really respect the Dog Brothers for doing

is experimenting with mismatched weapon contests. *That* is a reality.

You pull a knife and he gets a club. You pull a club and he pulls a gun.

There is no fighting involved, you use the superior weapon to disable your opponent.

And you do it before he does it to you.

As far as your attacker is concerned this is not a fight, it is an assassination.

He is not going to want to stand there with you and hack it out.

Unfortunately, this is exactly the fantasy that many so-called knife fighting

instructors promote. The absolute last thing you want to do is to try to “fight.”

Another reason that you need to chase the idea of “knife fighting” out of your head

is that in many states there is this attitude that “consensual fights” are best resolved

by throwing both of the morons who participated in jail.

It is true, you have the right to defend yourself against attack,

but if you decide to fight someone, it isn’t self-defense anymore,

and if you use a lethal weapon on someone

in a “knife fight” that you could have avoided,

then you have yourself a gang of problems ahead of you.

That is unless you like being gang raped in a prison shower.

Lie #3 “But what if I’m cornered?”

Common sense tells us that knife fighting is dangerous.

And yet, like a dog circling a bear’s den — where a smarter part of it

knows not to wake that sleeping bear, yet another,

more instinctive part is urging it on –

many people who train in knife fight have the same torn desires.

One of the biggest issues goading these people is Do they have what it takes?”.

Unlike dogs, however, human beings have the ability for self-deception

and rationalization. And one of the ways that we human fool ourselves

is that we fantasize about situations where we would be able

to give ourselves permission to find out if we “have it.”

Such people strongly resist the idea that knife fighting is a bad place to go.

It is literally as though they are seeking to find an excuse.

One of the strongest indicator of this fantasy mindset

is the reaction when they are told to flee instead of fighting with a knife,

literally the next words out of their mouths will be

“But what if I am cornered and can’t run?”

There are many such similar excuses that they can use

and they all start with the word but:

“but what if I am with old people or children and can’t run?”,

“But what if I am out of shape (or infirm) and can’t run?”

In all cases, of the millions of possible options available

they always seem to focus on the one that requires them

to engage in a knife fight. The truth is, it is incredibly difficult to “corner” someone

who is determined to leave.

Basically because he will use your face as traction

or squirt through the smallest of holes.

However, if the person’s desire not to engage in physical violence

is stronger than his desire to leave, it is very easy to corner someone.

If you ask any experienced LEO, corrections officer or mental ward

orderly which they would rather face, a person who wants to fight them,

or someone who will climb over them to escape,

to a man they will tell you the former.

They know the latter will hurt them more and be harder to defeat.

That’s because that person is fully committed to a course of action.

Whereas a person who has allowed themselves to be “cornered”

will still be of a divided heart and therefore not able to fight at full capacity.

And that is exactly what it will take in order to survive

such a “no win” situation that they have put themselves into.

That is the true danger of this kind of thinking.

Because part of you does want to know if you have what it takes and “can do it,”

you can unconsciously trick yourself into not taking

appropriate precautions and ignoring danger signals.

Your pride and ego will blind you about what you are doing until it is too late.

Once there however, your life — if it continues past that moment –

will be utterly destroyed.

Don’t fantasize about being in a situation

where you have to use your knife fighting skills,

because you can end up tricking yourself

into just such a situation by blinding yourself to possible escape routes.

Lie #4 He’s going to attack you a certain way

I have a demonstration that I do during knife seminars.

I find the highest ranking Filipino martial arts player present

and I tell him to check and pass my attack.

I then proceed to do a well balanced, fast, cautious attack.

This is a legitimate and fast attack, and they tend to block it.

I then tell them to block the another attack – and aiming for the same target -

I do a prison yard rush on them. To this day I have gutted everyone of them.

The reason? They are entirely different knife attacks.

Many years ago Don Pentacost wrote a book called

Put ‘em down, take ‘em out: Knife fighting from Folsom Prison.

In it Don pointed out how actual knife homicides

occurred in maximum security prisons.

Putting it mildly, he outraged countless martial artists

by what he said in that book, who to this day still disparage the book.

Except for one thing, that prison yard rush is exactly what I use

to gut so many of them.

It is not a sophisticated attack, but it is a very common way

to attack someone with a knife in the USA.

The FMA are predicated on one basic assumption,

that you will be fighting a trained knifer.

The problem with that assumption is that not everyone attacks

the way that someone trained in the FMA will attack you.

This is problematic because the counters of the FMA

are designed to work against how people with FMA training will attack you.

Against these kinds of attacks, the counters work great.

The bottom line is, in the Western culture,

someone who is attacking you with a knife is attempting to murder you.

They are not going to be hanging back cautiously

in fear of your weapon and your fighting skill.

Instead they will usually attempt to overwhelm you and quickly kill you

by whatever means necessary. Such an attack is totally different

than the well balanced and liquid attacks of the FMA.

And that is totally different than how someone from Italy will attack you with a knife.

And that is different than how someone from Venezuela, Brazil,

South Africa or China is going to attack with a knife.

I know because I have traveled around the world

and encountered knife fighting systems from all of those places.

I know that those who are selling knife fighting training

and others who haven’t seen these other systems will deny it, but:

Just because you know how to handle one,

doesn’t mean you know how to handle the others.

Each are different, and each are equally lethal.

And those differences CAN kill you.

Another Interview Marc MacYoung

 Q: Please give us your definition of self-defense.”

M.MacYoung: “The working definition we use is, “Using whatever means necessary to quickly end a situation that offers you grievous bodily injury.”

Self-defense is not a limited skill.

Physical techniques and the use of force is just a layer of the skill sets associated with self-defense.

Self-defense is knowledge, awareness, and behavior and is an integral part of a larger subject called “Life Skills.”

Q: What do you consider the “key” components to an effective self-defense training program?”

M.MacYoung: “The objective of self-defense training “Is to get you out of a dangerous situation as quickly and effectively as possible while using a level of force that is appropriate to the situation.

A good self-defense program will include aspects that effectively develop your personal safety habits.

The instruction will be multi-layered and include information on awareness, avoidance, legal explanation and repercussion, danger recognition, the psychology of violence and physical technique.

Self-defense is about personal safety and the safety of your family. Physical self-defense is only one aspect inherent in a self-defense program.”

Q: Please explain why avoidance is the best strategy one should approach for self-defense.”

M.MacYoung:

…., more than half dealt with crime avoidance strategy and the others were about fighting.

Self-defense is not fighting or hitting someone, it is about taking responsibility for your life. Remember, self-defense is legal fighting is not.

Sure, physical skill, technique, your ability to back it up are parts of what makes up a personal safety strategy, but understand, physical self-defense is the last ditch effort.

You will read it on my site. I have said it countless times that when it comes to ” is no more than 5% of the equation.

 If you choose to ignore the issues that make up the other 95%, you will be more vulnerable to crime and violence than if you had no training at all.

Avoidance is always better than fighting.

Combined with knowledge and awareness you will be able to recognize how crime and violence develop, and avoid putting yourself in a self-defense situation.”

Q:  “It has been said that the traditional martial arts have no place in street survival or in self-defense. Do you agree with this statement?”

M.MacYoung: “No. I am on record for saying this: any martial arts system can be used for self-defense.

The martial arts can give you the tools that help you develop the elements to be used in self-defense.

Your skill at using the tools is what will make it effective when it comes to self-defense or as you say, street survival.”

Q:  “Why the controversy between martial arts or self-defense?”

]

.MacYoung: “The controversy stems from people who are more concerned with making money than the people they teach.

The martial arts and self-defense have become a lucrative business and that is fine, the problem arises when the selling and business aspects become more important than what you are teaching.”

Q: Is it necessary to be in good shape when it comes to self-defense?”

M.MacYoung: “Only if you expect to be in a long drawn out fight, and the reality is that is not self-defense.

 Physical fitness, being in shape is great but when it comes to a self-defense situation we are talking about ending it, not how long it will last or how good you look.

The physical techniques you use should be adaptable to your abilities, structure and not be complicated.”

Q:  “Is there an age considered too young or too old for self-defense training?”

 M.MacYoung:   “No, self-defense is about life skills and that is something you can develop and work on at any age.

When it comes to personal safety, think of it as a pyramid where knowledge and understanding are the foundation.

 Physical self–defense is the last ditch effort. Violence and crime can enter your life at any time with no consideration to age.”

Q: “How do I go about finding a martial arts school or a self-defense program?”

M.MacYoung: “And this is why I am so loved (laugh).

 It begins with knowing what you want and then, research.

The criteria for finding a martial arts school and a self-defense program are different. Martial arts training is not self-defense.

Understand that there are martial arts instructors that can teach self-defense but they are two distinct subjects.”

Q: “Would it take years of studying to learn how to defend myself?”

M.MacYoung: “If it does than it is not self-defense. As I have said before self-defense is much more than just physical technique.

Self-defense is a state of awareness, knowing where you are, who is around you, life skills that you can put into effect right away.”

Q:  “Will this awareness affect me in the sense that I could become paranoid?”

M.MacYoung: “Awareness without knowledge is paranoia.

What we are talking about here is being prepared.

Crime and violence are realities that do not exist if you choose to ignore them. Sure, you may be lucky and never find yourself in a self-defense situation, but do you really want to depend on luck when it comes to your safety or that of your family?“

Interview with Bando Bob Maxwell

Interview with Master Bob Maxwell

Bob “Bando” Maxwell

You know who else I am going to add here is Bob Maxwell one of original Bando guys. I am going to put some photos,  videos up of him

Mikyhail Ryabko and Valadimir Vasiliev Russian Systema

I lumped these 2 guys together since they are both of the come from the Russian System. Both these guys are ex Spesnatz (Russian Special Forces) and are both very experienced and highly trained street fighters

Valadimir Vasiliev

 Vasiliev is out of Montreal and runs seminars all over the world, I had a chance to train with him in Southern California many years ago. Very impressive, some of the best Knife Fighting Techniques (including throwing) I have ever seen.

This guy is great with every kind of Improvised Weapon including everything from a credit card to a baseball cap.

Unless us Special Op guys in the US Military, my theory is that the Russians did not have the Ammo budgets we had (we had tons of ammo during the Reagan years training) so the Russian Special Ops guys spent all that time learning hand-to-hand, improvised weapons, knife throwing and cutting, etc. This really shows in their COQ skills

We, on the other hand (as everyone knows who spend anytime at Benning of Bragg) did lots of range training but very little hand-to-hand. I think this has changed with the troops doing the MMA type stuff

The Russian Systema guys are some of the best I have seen and as a group probally the best. The American Schools of  Systema are not on the same level. You can’t be a stiff Kempo guys for 20 years go take a couple of seminars and be qualified in this art. Like San Soo these real Russian Systema guys (from Russian Special Forces) are very loose.

The looseness if leaned after years of training, few styles teach this

Mikyhail Ryabko

Excellent knife work

 

Ryabko is out of Moscow and is a retired Colonel in Spatnaz. This is one guy who to the untrained eye does not look the part, but is one bad dude believe me.

Ryabko also has that Russian loose style that seems to go along with all the Spatnaz guys have. Ryabko can hit like a truck and his ground stuff is great

Interview with Marc “the Animal” MacYoung

INTERVIEW WITH MARC “THE ANIMAL” MACYOUNG 
by Seif Hammack  http://www.uechi-ryu.com/interview_with_marc.htm

When it comes to fighting and self-defense there are a lot of pretenders out there but when you have an opportunity to talk with the real deal,you should take it. Marc “Animal” Macyoung is one such person and I recently had an opportunity to sit down with the “animal” himself and pick his brain about the manly and often mystified subject of fighting and self-defense.

SEIF HAMMACK: Hey Marc. Thanks for taking some time out to talk to us.

MARC MACYOUNG: No problem man. Glad to do it.

SEIF HAMMACK: You are seen as one of the founders of the self-defense reality, “been there done that,” genre along with other guys such as Peyton Quinn and Sammy Franco. I suppose the book I hear you most often associated with is Cheap Shots, Ambushes, and Other Lessons: A Down and Dirty Book on Street Fighting and Survival.

MARC MACYOUNG: Yeah, actually Paladin Press names my books and they always give them long titles. I usually have a short and simple title for my books and then they come up with one like that (laughing). Anyway, we were the guys, with actual experience, who came out and compared what we had to say against the martial arts trend. To this there is a good thing and bad thing: We literally changed the face of the martial arts. I mean you can’t find that much out there about awareness, avoidance, de-escalation, and other factors, now commonly preached, before 1989 or so when we started writing about them. Our stuff was immediately poopooed by the martial arts community. But over the years the students would read the books and the students that were white belts coming up on our stuff are now the black belts that are teaching. And they are teaching the stuff we talked about.

SEIF HAMMACK: That means it’s getting out there then.

MARC MACYOUNG: Oh Yeah. But a lot of the marketing Paladin does doesn’t reach the general public. So you get a lot of people who take our stuff and present it as their own. So that has been an issue: people poopoo our stuff and then they turn around and rip us off and present our material as their own. So it’s been an ongoing thing, but people still keep coming back and saying hey this stuff makes more sense than what these other guys are saying in these traditional schools. And the reason it makes sense is because that’s the way it works out there.

SEIF HAMMACK: Is it still a dojo mentality out there?

MARC MACYOUNG: Yeah. Literally what you are learning in the dojo is their whacked out interpretation of our information. So it is still very much a dojo environment. When it comes to most dojos I have a saying, which is “they have fantasy solutions to fantasy problems.” (laughing)

SEIF HAMMACK: Right (laughing).

MARC MACYOUNG: Fantasy is a one-dimensional representation of reality. It doesn’t have the full depth and width of reality. So when I talk about the “dojo fantasies” I’m not saying that they are making stuff up, but that they are trying to limit reality.

SEIF HAMMACK: It also appears that most of these instructors profess to have experience in fighting and self-defense when in fact, outside the dojo, they may have very little, if any.

MARC MACYOUNG: First of all there is a big difference between fighting and self-defense. The key element is that if you’re fighting you’re part of the problem.

SEIF HAMMACK: Okay, so if you are fighting then you are actually the aggressor?

MARC MACYOUNG: Or you’re an aggressor in a situation of two aggressors. In other words you’re being an asshole, and you’re being just as much of an asshole as the other guy. The thing about it is that self-defense is legal—fighting isn’t. Which means if you are found to be a participant in the escalation and development of a fight you are legally liable—they’ll bust your balls.

SEIF HAMMACK: So what you are saying is that you have the right to self-defense but if you are fighting then you are seen as someone who is out there looking for violence?

MARC MACYOUNG: Right. The cops usually arrest both participants after a fight. So a lot of what is sold as “self-defense” is actually training to fight. Now here’s the thing, a self-defense situation literally comes out of nowhere: it is a situation that you have not provoked, you’ve tried to avoid it, you’ve done all these things to keep it from happening and you’re still assaulted. Personally I can’t tell you how many times I would break up fights and one guy would act like he didn’t do anything to provoke it when in reality both guys were involved in the escalation of the whole thing. I mean that’s a fight. One guy is calling it self-defense, but the reality is that he was engaged in the escalation of this. So that is not self-defense, that’s a fight.

SEIF HAMMACK: And most people probably don’t know the difference.

MARC MACYOUNG: That’s right and if you don’t know the difference you can’t train for the difference.

SEIF HAMMACK: True. So lets take the average guy out there who lifts a lot of weights, maybe takes some martial arts classes or hits a heavy bag every now and then feeling pretty secure that he has what it takes to handle it out there. What’s wrong with that picture?

MARC MACYOUNG: (laughing) He’s dog meat. Fighting is kind of like playing football. You’re not going to play football without getting tackled. What a lot of people want to do with their martial arts is to go from the peewee leagues to the NFL. However, like football, the better you get the better the people you’re up against are going to be. You’re not going to be playing in the peewees anymore. You’ve stacked the deck and so has the other guy.

SEIF HAMMACK: Hmm. So do other skilled fighters instinctively pick you out because you’ve upped your skills?

MARC MACYOUNG: No. The punks are no longer a concern to you. But a lot of people make a mistake in moving up the ladder. They are dealing with the punks on a regular basis and they are buffaloing the punks. The punks take a look at them and back off. So they start walking around like they are the big dick in town and this delusion lasts until they meet somebody else of equal or greater skill. And they are out there. So these guys will be walking around huffing and puffing pushing away the little guys and all of a sudden they push someone their own size or they come up against a big dog.

SEIF HAMMACK: Right.

MARC MACYOUNG: Here’s the thing: if you are smart, the better at fighting you get the less fighting you’ll do. Because the better you get the less you want to do it. You realize that the people you are going to be up against are way good. There is an old saying that “when two tigers fight one dies and one’s injured.” So even if you win he’s going to get a piece out of you.

SEIF HAMMACK: It seems that grappling is the big thing these days. How good is grappling for self-defense?

MARC MACYOUNG: I meet up with a lot of grapplers. These guys are buff and rough—damn fine athletes. And I’m not trying to detract from their sport. But it is not self-defense. When I meet these guys they’ll sit there and talk about how “I’d do this and I’d do that,” and I say, “look, the size you are, the muscle you have, I’d just shoot your ass.” Inevitably, you can bank on this like the sunrise; they’ll look at me and ask, “Well what if you don’t have a gun?” To which I always respond, “Do you think I’m stupid enough to go up against you without stacking the deck in my favor? If I didn’t have a gun I wouldn’t be in your face.” They are literally betting their lives on the stupidity of the other guy. They’ve stacked the deck and they are forgetting that the other guy can stack it too.

SEIF HAMMACK: Right.

MARC MACYOUNG: When it comes to self-defense you’ve got to remember that that guy wouldn’t be there if he didn’t think he had something to give him a win. The thing about it is that there are many different ways of fighting and winning. He’s probably not going to fight your fight. I was in Germany teaching a seminar and I was facing this guy who was a grappler. His attitude was that every problem could be grappled: all I have is a hammer so everything looks like a nail. So he took me down—it was sweet. However he took me down next to a practice knife. So I casually reached over, picked up the knife, and slit his throat. But the people were sitting there, looking at me, saying “But he tackled you.” And I said “Yeah, so?” “But he tackled you.” I said “Yeah, but I slit his throat.”

SEIF HAMMACK: So they felt like since he had scored the takedown that made it a win for him.

MARC MACYOUNG: Yeah, but the truth of the matter is that if it were real I would have been the one going out for a drink and not him—actually I would have a shower first to get the blood off. So it really comes down to truth in advertising. Grappling is a sport. It’s a fine sport. It is not self-defense. That’s selling a hammer as a chainsaw—two totally different tools.

SEIF HAMMACK: So what does a person need to know about going to the ground in a real fight?

MARC MACYOUNG: Don’t. It’s a bad place. First of all do you know that in most states the shod human foot is considered a lethal weapon?

SEIF HAMMACK: I do now.

MARC MACYOUNG: If I kick somebody while he is standing he can roll away from it. It will hurt him but a lot of the force will be bled off. However, if the person is down on the ground, and I am stomping on him, there is no other place for the force to go but into his body. When you look at the uniform crime report you will see a very large number of deaths that occur from non-firearms and non-weapons. The majority of these deaths occur while the person is on the floor. He is stomped to death.

SEIF HAMMACK: Now that is pretty scary, especially for a grappler, because a grappler would tend to take the fight to the ground.

MARC MACYOUNG: You better believe it! Right, that’s his answer. It’s the “I have a hammer and everything is a nail” syndrome. People usually ask me, “Well what about a real fight?” Well every fight I have been in has been a real fight. The question is to what degree is it a fight? Grappling and submission holds do have their place in a real fight, but you have to ingrain it into your mind that it is for only when you don’t want to hurt the guy: someone’s drunk and getting out of line and you’ve got to sit on him. That is when you use grappling, when it is your job to control and contain somebody. That is when you use submission fighting.

SEIF HAMMACK: So why is it that grappling is generally seen as being so effective?

MARC MACYOUNG: The reason why grappling was so incredibly effective in the sports arena, at first, was because the Brazilians still remembered that submission grappling exists and it was like a national sport for them. But in the western hemisphere with the influence of boxing and distance fighting on the martial arts and their popularity over grappling we had forgotten that grappling exists and had forgotten how to defend against it.

SEIF HAMMACK: Hence the first 4 or 5 UFCs.

MARC MACYOUNG: Right. The Gracies just mopped the floor with everybody. But once people began to study this stuff they began to come up with counters. This is literally the history of warfare. People come up with stuff that works in battle and they start winning for awhile then other people look over it, study it, counter it, and then they start winning. It’s amazing how during this process of counter, counter, counter, something will be left behind and eventually someone will come back to it.

SEIF HAMMACK: Great observation.

MARC MACYOUNG: The northern sport fighter had forgotten about clinching. However, street fighters know about clinching. When you got two guys flying at each other to fight, they are going to clinch. They know about going to the ground. What they know about going to the ground is that you don’t want to do it. Because in the kind of places that I used to be it was entertainment to kick the shit out of people on the ground. Now in a nice place with only two people fighting it may be safe to go there. But if you do that in some of the places I used to hang out in everybody in the joint may decide to stomp you just for the fun of it.

SEIF HAMMACK: Nice crowd (laughing).

MARC MACYOUNG: (laughing) Oh yeah, very nice crowd. I mean you need to know how to function on the ground. I’m a firm believer in that. But you have to know where grappling works best and that’s when you don’t want to hurt the guy and in conditions where it is safe to go to the ground. If those conditions don’t exist don’t go there or if you do go there get up—stat. I’m not against grappling; I’m just for grappling in its proper place and knowing where it doesn’t work—where you may get your throat slit.

SEIF HAMMACK: Now I read that you were in an altercation where a guy mounted you and he was pummeling you and you bit his crotch.

MARC MACYOUNG: (laughing) Yeah, I tried to do a dismount throw to get him off—it didn’t work. So I had plan B, you know, his crotch was there, I bit him. See here’s the thing, a lot of people want to take fighting and put it into a martial arts box. The problem is you’ve got to put the box down to have your hands free in order to fight. If you’re so busy holding the box your hands are not free. I did what I needed to do to survive. That was a situation where things were not going my way. In a grappling scenario he was winning; in a sport situation he was winning; here’s the thing, in a sport situation there are rules. I wasn’t playing by any rules and no rules means any rules.

SEIF HAMMACK: Yeah, even Ultimate Fighting wouldn’t allow a bite to the crotch.

MARC MACYOUNG: The UFC will not be reality until the people coming into the arena don’t have to go through a metal detector. When that happens and you have step into the ring with five other dudes in there carrying weapons—that will be reality.

SEIF HAMMACK: But those UFC fighters are in pretty good fighting shape man—something has to be said for that.

MARC MACYOUNG: Physical conditioning is critical to military combat, due to the amount of terrain soldiers have to cover before they engage the enemy, and to competitive sports as well but for self-defense it isn’t.

SEIF HAMMACK: It isn’t? And why not?

MARC MACYOUNG: Because in a self-defense situation I’m not there to fight the guy, I’m there to end it. Now by “end it,” most people think I mean that I’m going to stick around and beat the guy up. No. It means I’m going to get the hell out of there. If somebody attacks me and I drop him like a prom dress am I going to stand there? Hell no, I’m going to leave. Because if I stay there he’s eventually going to get up. I can’t tell you how many people I’ve known who have been killed because they hung around a place after they’d been in a fight. The guy leaves and then comes back with a shotgun blowing the other guy off of the barstool.

SEIF HAMMACK: Good point. These are things that a sport fighter generally may not even consider.

MARC MACYOUNG: The mindset of a sport fighter is that his physical ability is in front of him like a bulldozer blade; it’s going to plow through the problem. That is a fighting mindset. A self-defense mindset is you’re using your fighting ability as a shield to cover your ass as you get out of there. Kind of like the way soldiers in Vietnam would sit on their helmets in a helicopter to keep from getting shot in the ass! So this is definite ass covering (laughing).

SEIF HAMMACK: That’s a big difference.

MARC MACYOUNG: That’s a huge difference. And it’s a mind set issue. You see most people are training to fight a “super punk”—the asshole that buffaloed them in school, but bigger. The problem with that is that the badasses are not super punks. They are something totally different. And the average person will not be able to recognize the difference between a punk and a badass and neither will the average martial artist. He’s so busy looking for who he thinks the badass is going to be that he’s not going to see the real one until the guy walks up and bites him on the ass.

SEIF HAMMACK: Sounds like a major blind spot.

MARC MACYOUNG: And remember a blind spot isn’t only an area you can’t see but you don’t know you can’t see it. There are some sneaky, evil, little bastards who are going to be looking at where you’re not covered and that is how they are going to come in.

SEIF HAMMACK: Now can a person train for both sport fighting and self-defense or would one hamper the other?

MARC MACYOUNG: You can train for both. But the thing about it is that training for true self-defense is not going to take you anywhere like perhaps a sport-fighting career will. The number one element about true self-defense is that you have to shift your priorities.

SEIF HAMMACK: So is it a mental adjustment or both a mental and physical adjustment?

MARC MACYOUNG: It’s both. But I would say the majority of it is mental. The mental shift is that everything you thought was so important a few seconds ago you have to throw out the window. You need to know what the final destination is and that is that you could be killed here. You keep that end in mind. You have to accept the fact that every time you step into a self-defense situation or a fight you could be killed. If that is not the option the other is that you may have to kill someone yourself. So every time you step into a conflict you have to ask “is this worth either dying or taking another human life over?” This, by the way, is not an encouragement of the mindset—it is a warning away, a buffer, a repellant.

SEIF HAMMACK: So do you have to keep that in mind with anybody—even the yuppie in the Volvo?

MARC MACYOUNG: Hell, I’ve been shot at by yuppies too. Yep. Anytime you get into conflict.

SEIF HAMMACK: So how do a sport fighter and/or grappler learn how to make his art more effective for the street?

MARC MACYOUNG: Look, if violence were a simple problem it would have been solved along time ago. If I look at a situation from one point of view only, then everything I’m going to see will be colored by that perception. If I’m looking at it from a sports standpoint and continually operate along those rules I’m going to see a self-defense situation through those eyes. If on the other hand I learn from other points of view—from cops, lawyers, street fighters, guys from other arts, and everybody who has experience dealing with violence from different perspectives—then I begin to see why there are no simple answers here. So it’s when you get out of that one-dimensional mindset that you start learning. Read books on criminal behavior. Reading about current trends in crime is good to. This is for self-defense, because you learn the ways you may be attacked. Most importantly if something you are doing doesn’t work to stop an attack find something from the outside that will patch it? Don’t insist that your training partner attacks you in a way that you can control or that fits your specific technique. Most people don’t train against real attacks they train against altered and controlled attacks so that they can defeat them. So have your training partner attack you in a realistic manner. It does not have to be fast but the power has to be there—there has to be contact. The tough man competitions are good because these guys oftentimes, especially in the qualifier rounds, will attack and fight like the average barroom brawler—the guys you meet in the streets. I mean if my moves are not capable of handling that force why should I practice them? When it comes to sport training half of it is useless in a self-defense situation. The question is which half? Once you figure out which moves work in the ring and which moves work on the street you have to sit down with everything you know, look at it, experiment with it, and then put it in a sports pile or self-defense pile. Those moves that you have discovered work very well for ending the situation—those you keep for self-defense. No matter what style you’re in you have to go through your own bag of tricks and evaluate them.

SEIF HAMMACK: So basically you do see a use for sport fighting.

MARC MACYOUNG: Absolutely. The problem is that there are people who promote sport fighting as self-defense so that they can make money—not for the benefit of the students. If all you are thinking about is having to fight some bubba in a bar then yeah you can get away with it, no problem. But the ocean is a whole lot bigger than just that little bay. And it’s a whole lot deeper and there are some nasty things out there. So I will never denigrate the value of sports training. But I will raise bloody hell when someone turns around and calls it self-defense or street fighting. There are some vicious little pricks out there, I know because I was one of them, who are not going to be playing fair and you will die if you think that is the case. It comes back again to “do you think I’m stupid enough to face you without a gun?”

SEIF HAMMACK: Pretty harsh reality.

MARC MACYOUNG: Exactly, it’s a harsh reality out there. Which is why when I talk about the benefits of martial arts and sport fighting—it’s wonderful, it’s great, and its part of a much nicer happier less dangerous reality. Go for it; enjoy your life doing this stuff. Don’t try and take it where it doesn’t work.

SEIF HAMMACK: Now you actually teach. What is it exactly that you teach?

MARC MACYOUNG: My teaching is principle based. True self-defense has one purpose and one purpose only. Like I said it’s to cover your ass while you are leaving: ending it now and escaping. That is my work regarding self-defense. I try to run a balance between the realities of self-defense and understanding the depth of your martial arts beyond what you are being taught. You can do both if you understand. The difference between knowing and understanding is that if I know something I know it from one perspective, if I understand something that means I know it from many perspectives … I understand it’s implications, strengths, limits, etc. When you seek understanding rather than just knowing you can take your martial arts training and apply it to self-defense because you know what not to bring along and what not to do. This is a different ballgame with different rules. In order to survive in a self-defense situation you have to think. I cannot teach you how you are going to be attacked. What I can show you, however, are principles that if you understand them and apply them you can use them anywhere and at any time. No matter what is happening you will see the opportunity

SEIF HAMMACK: How does a person that has been training in sport for so long keep his training from interfering with that switch in mindset from sport to self-defense?

MARC MACYOUNG: Fighting is like Russian roulette; sooner or later it’s going to get really wet and messy. If I’m there to fight I am risking meeting this damned Irish man, we all now him, his name is Mr. Murphy and he has a law that comes with him; he also loves to fight. If there’s a fight going on he’s going to be right there watching. So if I’m fighting and I’m there to win and prove my superiority … that could take some time. Now the longer it takes the more likely Murphy is to jump in. So you ask me how you keep your training from going awry? The answer is you end it quickly. The shorter the conflict the less likely Murphy is to jump in. The thing about the sport mindset is that a lot of times you get hit three or four times and then you get warmed up. Unfortunately, on the street, the little son of a bitch that you’re up against has a razor so you have just been slashed three or four times … you’re not going to warm up you’re going to bleed out. So now if you take the mindset that this ends now, that a fight shouldn’t last longer than three moves … that’s not macho that’s just effective. This isn’t some hardcore, kung fu, killer-commando mindset, this is just I’m going to end it now. And I have sorted through my tools and figured out what is effective for ending things quickly.

SEIF HAMMACK: You mentioned the reality of getting slashed in a fight. Let’s talk about knives for a minute.

MARC MACYOUNG: When it comes to knives the problem is that there are tons of people out there teaching knife fighting, what Col. Rex Applegate called dueling. Personally I don’t want to duel I want to be alive. I want to end it now.

SEIF HAMMACK: So your thing is not to get into one in the first place?

MARC MACYOUNG: Remember, every time you step into that world it could escalate to the point of either you dying or somebody else dying. Are you willing to spend the rest of your life in prison because you killed somebody over a rude comment? That isn’t worth it. Contra wise I am so familiar with the scale, the force continuum, that I will look at somebody and recognize an immediate threat and I will kill somebody in less than five seconds if the person presents me with a sufficient threat that I recognize. There is no such thing as a glass ceiling in fighting; there is no point where it stops and you say I don’t feel comfortable past this point so I wont go there. That’s what people need to remember about fighting. That’s why I say it is so critical to differentiate between sport and self-defense. If you train for sport there are rules, those are wonderful, stay in them. If you’re training for self-defense you have to look at the entire spectrum. And the reason I don’t advocate fighting is because you are quite literally stepping into a place where there is no limit.

SEIF HAMMACK: So is there a point to learning how to use a knife in a fight?

MARC MACYOUNG: If you are learning from the idea of a sport or art then yeah … enjoy. But knife fighting is murder, there is no such thing as a professional knife fighter; they’re just criminals. Now in terms of self-defense, that is different, that is not knife fighting.

SEIF HAMMACK: Okay, so what is that?

MARC MACYOUNG: Using a knife for self-defense is ending a situation as quickly as possible. It is a lethal force situation where you need to use a deadly weapon to prevent yourself from dying or suffering grave bodily injury. And before you even think of using a knife for self-defense you had better learn judicious use of force laws, because it is the same thing as using a gun. If you use a knife on somebody at an inappropriate time you are going to prison.

SEIF HAMMACK: So who should rightfully carry a knife?

MARC MACYOUNG: Somebody who knows what it means. My first stepfather grew up in East LA. This man taught me to fight. And from my childhood this has been indoctrinated in me. He used to tell me, “don’t carry a knife unless you are going to pull it, don’t pull it unless you’re going to use it, don’t use it unless you’re willing to kill with it.” Every time I pick up a weapon I am accepting the fact that I am accountable to higher standards. I cannot get into the emotional blackmailing or hijacking whim dejours that the average person gives into because I now have a weapon that is capable of taking human life.

SEIF HAMMACK: Okay, so I take it a person shouldn’t just go to their local dojo to learn this stuff right?

MARC MACYOUNG: (laughing) Yeah, right. I still see people teaching this over hand “x-block” against a downward stab. That was a move against samurai with swords … it’s a sword move. What you have a whole lot of people doing here is thinking that expertise in one field automatically instills expertise in another. “Because I know this I know that.” It’s using one perspective to color everything you look at. Just because you know one thing doesn’t mean you know another. One of the best ways to learn about what a blade can do is to get a machete and go clear a lot. You’ll learn all kinds of things about blades that won’t be taught in school. You’ll also learn to have a deep and abiding fear of them, which is a good starting point. There are a lot of experts on knife fighting and my recommendation is to go see what they have to offer. They all have some information that is valid but nobody holds the entire truth.

SEIF HAMMACK: Like all of the arts.

MARC MACYOUNG: Right. So you create a third pile: you have your sports pile, your self-defense pile, and interesting other arts pile. I mean it’s really fun to learn and to pick and choose what works for you. The bottom line is that it’s not about me, it’s not about my system, it’s not about what I can do or what techniques I prefer … it’s about you. What you can do to stay safe and to grow and learn. That gets lost a lot of the time. People trying to make their living off of this stuff saying, “You have to study with me forever and ever.” No I don’t. It’s about the student not the teacher.

SEIF HAMMACK: Good enough. Let’s talk about your thoughts on fear.

MARC MACYOUNG: Okay, do you know what the difference is between fear and terror?

SEIF HAMMACK: Terror would cause you to freeze or incapacitate you and fear would simply be that rush of adrenaline.

MARC MACYOUNG: Right. The difference between fear and terror is that with terror I don’t know what to do. With fear I have a working solution. If I don’t have a solution that I have faith will work, I’m going to freeze. And I’m going to basically get my ass kicked. Fear on the other hand is the go juice. When I have a solution that I know works fear is going to make me do it faster. Fear is your ally. People talk about “no fear,” and I’m like, “You fucking idiot.” The only people who are not afraid are stupid or psychotic. Fear is that juice that gives you the ability to operate towards a goal that you know works.

SEIF HAMMACK: I think a lot of people are afraid of fear.

MARC MACYOUNG: Because they don’t know the difference between fear and terror. I have done things that are absolutely amazing. I mean there are people who claim that I have knocked bullets out of the air with my dick. I’ve got to tell you that this is not macho b.s. The truth is that I was so scared that they were going to hurt me that I had to do something. If I didn’t have knowledge of something that would work I would have gone into terror … I would have froze. As it was I knew I had to do something and I had a set of tools that I knew worked. This again comes back to sorting through your tools. If I don’t have faith in my tools and I haven’t experimented with this stuff to figure out what works for sport and what works for somebody trying to peg me, if I don’t know that difference, I’m going to freeze and I’m going to get clocked.

SEIF HAMMACK: So it’s being in a situation where you have an option as opposed to being in a situation where you don’t have options.

MARC MACYOUNG: Solutions. We all have options: one option is I piss my pants and faint (laughing). I just don’t consider it and effective solution. If I do something I know it’s going to work. The only question is can I do it fast enough? Fear is going to make sure I do it fast enough.

SEIF HAMMACK: So then fear is…

MARC MACYOUNG: My friend! We go out and we drink and laugh about what happened. The idea of conquering your fear: it’s like listen you stupid son of a bitch don’t try and do it because you’re throwing something away that mother nature gave to you in order to keep you alive. Pain and emotions are motivational messages. When we feel them we feel we have to act. Fear is an emotion that we have to survive. Walking into a dangerous situation where this son of a bitch wants to kill me … that is dangerous, he wants to kill me, he has the ability to do it. Should I be fearless? Yeah, right … bullshit. I want to be the one who walks out of that situation. The guy that has no fear is not going to be reacting fast enough and he’s going to get killed.

SEIF HAMMACK: And the fear leads to terror if you don’t have solutions?

MARC MACYOUNG: If you don’t have an answer, right. I went through a door once, thank God I peed before I did this, and I found myself looking down the barrel of a shotgun. Anytime you are looking down the barrel of a gun, I don’t care what caliber that gun is, that barrel is three feet across. It’s that big. I looked up, I saw this gun, the guy was scared but I was more scared, I swatted the gun aside, ripped it out of his hand and hit him over the head with it. Was this macho? No, this was just fear and a part of me saying that “that [gun] needs to go away.” I don’t care how it goes away … it goes away now. I mean it was raw fear and I would have pissed my pants if I hadn’t peed earlier. But that’s fear working towards a goal. If you have kids you will discover how fast you can react when your kid is hurt … it’s amazing. I mean that kid hits the deck and boom you’ve got the kid; you’re in the car, and on the way to the hospital. Your scared but you are not in terror. If you were in terror you would just freeze.

SEIF HAMMACK: Like a panic.

MARC MACYOUNG: Well, panic is seeking an answer. I’m trying to find a solution. It’s like when in danger, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout (laughing). I’m looking for a solution, but I don’t have one. I’m desperately seeking solutions. Wasn’t that a really bad movie? (laughing)

SEIF HAMMACK: (laughing) Maybe.

MARC MACYOUNG: That’s the difference. I personally never wanted to work with guys who had no fear. Because they were the ones who were going to do something stupid and get me killed. I didn’t mind them getting themselves killed; it was they getting me killed that I objected to.

SEIF HAMMACK: What about the concept of controlling fear?

MARC MACYOUNG: (laughing) Okay, how about this? I have a solution. I look at my fear on a leash and, to quote the immortal bard, “cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war.” Why do I want to control my fear if I have a solution?

SEIF HAMMACK: I guess it would be control in terms of not going into terror.

MARC MACYOUNG: Well, here’s the other thing. If I have a solution that I know works I’m not going to have so much fear to deal with either. If a little five year old stands there and says, “I’m going to kick your ass,” how scared are you? Why does that little five year old not scare you where as if it were a big, snarling, tattooed, three hundred pound biker you would be going “aaaaahhhhhh!!!”

SEIF HAMMACK: Because you have the solution for the kid but not for the biker.

MARC MACYOUNG: Exactly. Now the reason you have the solution for the kid is because you know you can win. Even if he challenges you with more gusto than that biker you’re not afraid. So controlling fear is kind of a misnomer. Because if you understand what you are doing and you have a solution that you know will work you’re not afraid. If you don’t have a solution you’re in terror. If you’re scared then it’s a matter of like gee I hope this solution is going to work in time. So do I want to control my fear or do I want that fear to make sure that solution happens fast enough? Do you now see how come I’m such a pariah in the martial arts world?

SEIF HAMMACK: Yeah, but it seems that the martial arts benefits from having some renegades to shake things up every now and then anyway.

MARC MACYOUNG: Well, the problem is that people want to put reality in a box and reality doesn’t fit in boxes nicely. So I break a lot of the mythologies about martial arts and self-defense. I mean there has been a lot of time and energy spent in making this mythology.

SEIF HAMMACK: A lot of people are getting rich off of that mythology.

MARC MACYOUNG: I know. Unfortunately I discovered scruples. Okay, I admit I read Aristotle’s “Ethics” while working in a strip joint (laughing), but I really do have them. And for me one of my worst nightmares is that I teach somebody something that will get him killed. The people I train tend to be in high-risk professions, so this is not a myth this is a possibility. If I teach some bullshit I’m going to get one of my people killed. And it is a terrifying possibility to me. Therefore I have to always do the check it, double check it, and when you’ve done that check it again thing. My students come back to me on a regular basis and say, “It went down the other night and thank you, it worked.”

SEIF HAMMACK: That must feel pretty good.

MARC MACYOUNG: You know the first time I had some guy do that was at a gun show where I was selling my books and this guy walked up to me, looked at my book, looked at me, and looked back at my book and asked me, “Did you write this?” I said “Yeah.” And he put his hand out and said, “I want to thank you. You saved my life.” He had been in a situation and the other guy was holding a knife exactly the way I had said to look for. He saw the knife and said, ” I was going to fight but now I’m going to run like hell.” And because of that he lived. So I can’t afford to teach nonsense. If I were willing to lie and feed people’s fantasies of what the martial arts are about then, yeah, I would be a whole lot richer. If I wanted a cult of true believers to follow me I could have it but I refuse to go there. I’m not here for that. It’s sort of like I’m here to help people and much of that is payback for a lot of the shit that I have done. If I can help people understand, grow, and get along further in their path then I’ve paid my rent on this planet.

SEIF HAMMACK: Can anyone train with you?

MARC MACYOUNG: I seriously have one main standard and that is that I will not teach anybody from a hate group. That’s about it.

SEIF HAMMACK: How do people generally react to your teachings?

MARC MACYOUNG: Well, some people think I’m the savior and others the devil … in the meantime I’m sitting here smoking my cigar saying, “No, I’m just me (laughing).” My fans are devoted. But I get people who just tear me down saying, “Well, this guy, he claims to be a street fighter and he’s full of shit!” That’s because I don’t fit their fantasy definition of what a street fighter is. And that’s okay because I’m not going to argue trying to prove to them what I know and what I do. And I also don’t play in the instructor wars, which is going out and badmouthing other instructors. That guy’s got part of the truth, that guys got part of the truth, and that guys got part of the truth and he may have something that works really well for you so go play and see what he’s got. Just don’t accept that his truth is the whole truth

SEIF HAMMACK: Now you have written quite a few books.

MARC MACYOUNG: I think I’m at ten now and I’m writing number eleven.

SEIF HAMMACK: What is number eleven all about?

MARC MACYOUNG: You could call it primary colors of attack book. After a lot of thinking I have discovered that there are actually only six ways to attack and what I’m doing is detailing and showing all these different ways and once you know the primary colors you can mix them and create your own techniques.

SEIF HAMMACK: Sounds good. I really like principle-based stuff because you can plug a lot of your own stuff into it.

MARC MACYOUNG: Yeah and you can tweak the principles to your own. The best fighters are the guys who don’t know ten thousand techniques; it’s the guys who know about three principles and from those principles generate tens of thousands of techniques.

SEIF HAMMACK: So when is the new book due out?

MARC MACYOUNG: I don’t know. I’m still in the middle of writing it, and then the publisher has to accept it … that should be within a year. The other thing that’s going to be fun is that as soon as I get the book out of the way I’m going to be burning compact discs. I think that CD-Rom offers the best blend of video and book. The first one is going to be take down and control tactics for police and professionals. It should be out later this year and it will be posted on the web page.

SEIF HAMMACK: Cool. Where can one purchase you current material?

MARC MACYOUNG: You can purchase all of my stuff through the web page, which is at www.nononsenseselfdefense.com.

SEIF HAMMACK: And there is also a lot of information on your website about the things we have been discussing as well.

MARC MACYOUNG: Yeah. The best advice I can give people about the website is to make a cup of coffee … you’re going to be there for a while. I have gotten more people writing me and saying, “Man you give away too much stuff.” But the thing about it is that that’s the basic shit … that’s the intro course. Your average John Q. Public still has no idea who I am. I don’t expect that person to walk up and just on blind faith plunk down his money for my stuff. So, I operate on a basis of giving away this information for free because I want you to have faith that it is stable data. So John and Jane Public can come to my site and read it and say, “Okay, this makes sense.” It’s not a sales pitch nearly as much as it is establishing a sense of trust.

SEIF HAMMACK: Well, Marc I’d like to thank you for taking time to chat and I look forward to doing it again soon.

MARC MACYOUNG: No, problem man. I have fun doing these. I think I finally do have to get down to tiling this kitchen floor here however (laughing).

SEIF HAMMACK: Okay, take care.

MARC MACYOUNG: Bye.

Marc “the Animal” MacYoung “Street Fighter Extraordinaire””

 

Yet, it is his quirky humor and ability to take such a serious subject and make it funny that has won him and his writing a devoted following (deeply disturbed, but devoted).

 This wild and weird sense of humor has made his books very popular and easy to read. It also has prompted one reviewer to describe reading his books as if “sitting down with a six pack and an old friend – a very twisted and dangerous old friend.” 

MacYoung began to write about street self-defense in 1989 when he sat down to make up a small booklet for his students. Fifteen books and five videos later he is of the leading experts on the subject of surviving high-risk situations.  

 The author of several very insightful books on street fighting this guy is the real deal.